Beeson Podcast, Episode #719 Dr. Gordon Bals, Dr. Jeff Heine Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I’m joined today by Beeson alumnus and current student, Dr. Jeff Heine, who is studying counseling now at Beeson and is on staff at Redeemer Community Church here in Birmingham. And by Beeson professor, Dr. Gordon Bals, who leads our master of arts program in Christian counseling. We’re looking forward to learning from both of them about counseling ministry and Beeson’s counseling program. So, thank you gentlemen for being with us. So, Jeff, Dr. Bals has been introduced to the audience of the Beeson Podcast a couple of times before. But I’m not sure everybody knows about you as well as they should know about you. So, do you mind if I introduce you to them just a bit? Tell us a little bit about your background, how you came to know the Lord, and how you got to Beeson Divinity School way back when in the first place? >>Heine: Okay. So, I’m originally from Western Kentucky. I grew up in Paducah, which is not known for much except for the quilting museum and Stephen Curtis Chapman. I grew up there with a family that took me to church every Sunday. They loved the Lord. They loved the local church. And so we were there, my sister and I, from the cradle. And so it was early in that time there at the Southern Baptist Church in Paducah where I heard the gospel clearly every Sunday. I came to know God’s love for me. And to know that I needed this Jesus. That what he had offered in his grace in terms of the cross was for me. It was a beautiful church family. They cared for me well. I felt safe there. I felt known by people outside of my immediate family. And so I loved just being there. Even when I got my license as a teenager I would drive and hang out with the pastors in their offices. It was just a place that I felt welcomed and felt known. And so that was the environment for those early years of discipleship and getting to know the scriptures better. And to get little opportunities to lead, whether that was worship leading or leading a bible study. In high school and college my best friend and I, we taught the royal ambassadors for the junior high guys that no one else wanted to spend time with because they were quite wild. But it was a good time. Just being able to walk with them through the years as they were growing up. And then I went to Murray State in Western Kentucky. I studied Philosophy there. And even though it was a state school I was exposed to ancient writings by Augustine and Kierkegaard. Then modern Christian philosophers like Merold Westphal and others that were really influential for me. And at the same time was going to a bible study down the road in Hardin, Kentucky that was led by a man, a home bible study, he had built a ministry over the years, he had been an NBA basketball player in the ‘70s. He played for the Spurs, came back to be a hog farmer in Hardin, Kentucky. His name was Bob Warren. And he was called by the Lord to teach the scriptures to the community. And so he opened up his home and I would go there every Tuesday night during college and it was during that time that the Lord really used Bob to help me discern a calling into ministry. Fred Saunders also when he was at Murray State before me, he went out to Bob’s to study the bible with him. So, Bob was a remarkable servant of the Lord. His excitement to teach the bible to just anyone in the community that would come to his house on a Tuesday night was a beautiful thing to be a part of. So, that really shaped me and shaped my heart for the call to ministry. >>Sweeney: So, did you go to seminary right out of college or how did it go for you? >>Heine: I did. My then fiancé, now wife, she also grew up in Paducah with me, came down here and went to Samford for undergraduate. So, we got engaged. We were trying to figure out where we were going to land. We decided that we would move to Birmingham to spend that first year figuring out where we wanted to go to grad school, all those things. And so she got a job at O’Henry’s in Homewood and then a part time job working with her former college ministry UCF, which was led by Joel Brooks. So, I had heard from a friend that there were job listings inside of the divinity school at Samford. And so my wife pulled into the little drive out here in front of Beeson. I went up to the second floor to the job board. I was writing down every job listing that was up there. And I overheard a conversation in a classroom next to me. It was an older man’s voice and a group of young students. And I don’t remember what they talked about. But just the warm engagement that was happening. I knew that I needed to apply to Beeson. And so I was actually overhearing Dr. Calvin Miller’s mentoring group that led me to apply that first time. >>Sweeney: Wonderful. And so while you were here, were you thinking, “God is moving me into pastoral ministry?” Or you weren’t sure yet? >>Heine: I wasn’t sure yet. So, I came in as an MTS student. And really it was hearing the preaching classes, hearing from my friends that were in there with Dr Smith at that time, I said, “I want to be a part of that. Just to experience it, experience that training.” And it was through interacting in those courses that the Lord really stirred in my heart that pastoral ministry was my future. >>Sweeney: All right. So, you finish up your master’s degree at Beeson and then what? You moved into a full time ministry position? >>Heine: Yes. So, the same year that I was finishing up the MDiv Joel and Lauren Brooks were planting Redeemer. Because we had known the Brookses for some time we first were just joining them in their home to pray about this church plant, to support our friends. And after that first night of prayer we left the Brookses home in Crestwood, stopped off at Walgreens, and when my wife got back in the car I said, “I think we might need to be a part of this.” And so we thought, okay, maybe for another year, maybe for another year staying here in Birmingham and that was 2008. >>Sweeney: That’s remarkable. You’ve been at Redeemer since day one. >>Heine: Yes. >>Sweeney: Wow. All right, we’re about to get to counseling but not quite yet. You also did a DMin degree at Beeson. When did that happen and why did that happen? >>Heine: Yeah, so in 2012 is when I started that program. I just continued to want coaching and training and equipping; more direction and growth as a pastor. I loved the MDiv program. It was equipping for the work, but I also had this vision of the pastor that I wanted to be. And I knew that there was more that the Lord had for me here at Beeson. And so that is what led me to apply to that program. Getting to work again and learn from Dr. Thielman, Dr. Matthews, Dr. Smith, and then Dr. Webster oversaw my dissertation. It was a very challenging program but very rewarding. >>Sweeney: What was your dissertation about? >>Heine: It was discipleship within the Millennial generation. Because we were seeing so many people of that age, my age, coming into Redeemer while all the stats from Pew Research and Barna were saying they were leaving the church in droves. We were seeing the opposite. I kind of wanted to know why. >>Sweeney: That sounds perfect for Redeemer. All right. So, when and how did this sort of desire well up in you for more education in counseling? As a pastor, were you doing a lot of counseling and then figuring out, oh my, I need to know what I’m doing? Or how did that go for you? >>Heine: Yeah, for so many years as a church plant it was all hands on deck. The first seven/eight years Joel and I were the only staff pastors. And so we had other staff that were coming. Dwight Castle was doing our local missions as a director and all of that. But on the pastoral staff side it was just Joel and myself. I was doing more and more of the premarital counseling, individual counseling, and care. The church did not grow quickly. It was a slow growth. But once the tipping point kind of came and it was more rapid growth the needs diversified rapidly. I knew that I needed more equipping and training to be able to not only be a practitioner of that care myself but in coaching, training and equipping our congregation from member to member care, which is really the ideal vision of particularly in the primary or general care within the church. That that would be member to member. And then those who are walking through seasons that are more what we call “elevated” or “crisis care,” even when we’re partnering with local mental health professionals we still want church members walking with those individuals through those seasons. So, being able to equip and partner in those different ways I knew that I needed more training to be able to do that well. And then also in the preaching and teaching and writing in the field that had to do with mental health and wellness care. I wanted better vocabulary and categories for the things that I was seeing in our church. >>Sweeney: Yeah. So, were you counseling for quite a number of years before you had the opportunity? Beeson didn’t start this masters in counseling until this past year. But you were doing that your best, you knew the bible well, you knew the Lord well, you had the most important tools. And then trying your best to craft a member to member ... What is the member to member care program like at Redeemer? >>Heine: It’s a volunteer team. What we call “Care Companions.” And so someone that would be trained up on some more difficult acute needs that people might be walking through. And then as those cases come up, pairing those care companions with the member in need to just walk through that season. A lot of it is just relational intentional friendship and walking with them through those things. About five years ago is when we started the care ministry. But I was doing the pastoral care for about 16 years before this program began. >>Sweeney: All right. So, you sound like the kind of person who when hearing about this program would be a prime candidate for enrolling in it, and now you have been enrolled in it for the better part of a year. Is it making the kind of difference you hoped it would make? >>Heine: Absolutely. I mean, the way in which it is both practical and immediate by context has been a real blessing. There are things that we talk about on a Thursday in class and that case study, that individual was just in my office on Wednesday. And so there is an immediacy of, “Oh, I’ve just walked through this and I maybe fumbled my way through this doing the very best that I could, and now here is practical immediate training on these things.” And so that’s been remarkable. How quickly it moves from reading this in a book or hearing a lecture and then it goes right into the pastoral office. >>Sweeney: Yeah. I’m imagining what some listeners might be thinking about as they listen to you. I’m not sure I’m right about this, but there may be some people out there thinking, “All right, this Pastor Heine guy, he did his masters degree at the seminary, he’s got a DMin at the seminary,” they may have already heard that Beeson’s counseling program is a very theologically driven counseling program, and they may be wondering, “so why is this additional degree program helpful to him?” If there were somebody like that in the room asking you, “Why did you have to go back and do this? Didn’t you already have all the resources you needed to do it?” What would you say? How would you commend it to someone like that? >>Heine: That’s a really good question. It’s one I asked myself a whole lot in applying and praying about this program. Isn’t this the stuff I’ve already done? Isn’t that enough? I would point really to two things. One is the specificity. Just getting specific into these topics. I didn’t have a class on trauma in the MDiv. I didn’t have a class that really walked through mental health and diagnoses within the church. And so the specificity is the gift. And then the other thing I would point to is that there were men and women in my life over the years that I looked up to in ministry. And if I took a step back and I said, “How do I become like these men and women? How do I grow in these ways to become the pastor that I want to be and also feel called to be?” It’s going to take more equipping. It’s going to take more specific training to really become that pastor that I want to be. And so that’s the journey there. >>Sweeney: I’m about to turn to Dr. Bals and ask him just to tell us a little bit about his vision for the counseling program long-range but before I do, Jeff, I don’t mean this to seem like a curveball. You didn’t know I was going to ask you about this, but it’s just true that Gordon Bals’ teaching is just transformative in the lives of lots of people. I don’t want to puff him up right before I ask him a question. But as I’m trying to commend our counseling program to people, part of what I want them to know is that studying with Gordon is just a really rich experience. I hear that from our students all the time. Has this been true for you? How would you describe Gordon as a teacher? Working with Gordon on counseling and its applicability for ministry? >>Heine: I mean, everything you’re saying is spot on. The program is good content, great book lists, things that are accessible at a goo d library or free online. So, what sets this apart? And it’s those conversations in class. Because they’re not just a lecture of downloading information. But it’s a conversation. It’s taking these two ... the case studies, the different scenarios into real life practical ministry. These are the people that we have been entrusted to care for. By God’s grace who are purchased by God’s blood. That is a heavy call. And to glean from Gordon’s experience, and the other professors as well, the real experience that they have had sitting face to face with a church member in need, to tend to their soul with the scriptures, guided by the Spirit and with a wealth of knowledge behind it. I mean, that’s transformative. And so yes, there are different resources that I could find online or in libraries, but that’s not something you can get in those places. You can’t replicate that just in resources and tools. >>Sweeney: All right, Gordon, why don’t we turn to the architect of this program and hear from him for a minute. You and I have talked on the podcast before. And those who listen to all the episodes may remember about your story. We shouldn’t spend a lot of time on it but can you remind us about the founding of Daymark and kind of how you got to teaching at Beeson from the practice of counseling in the clinical setting? >>Bals: Yeah. So, I came to Birmingham to be on staff at a church and had to go part time after a year and a half. That’s why I started Daymark, never thinking I would do that long range. And it’s really just a direction the Lord pushed me into. I didn’t have the faith or sight to walk towards. And did both part time for about five years. And then moved into doing Daymark full time. But at the same time I really had a passion to teach. So, right after I finished my doctorate I started teaching adjunct at Southeastern Bible and then bugged Mark Gignilliat every time I saw him to pass my CV along here at Beeson. >>Sweeney: Finally, he did it. >>Bals: Finally, he did it. And a couple months later Dr. Haygood retired and they asked me if I would come teach marriage and family. I was like, I would love to do that! So, I did Daymark full time from ’02 to I guess two or three years ago. So, about ’22. But then I was part time five years before that. And I also counseled in Colorado a little bit. So, different experiences in counseling. >>Sweeney: All right. So, now let’s just talk about this program that we’re building. That’s the royal “we.” That you’re building with a teeny bit of help from me. What’s your vision for it? What different do you want it to make in the lives of people and in the ministries of our churches? >>Bals: Yeah. I would say a couple of things. And Jeff, really both how he says things and what he says is a good picture of that. And there’s many things I would say about that. But Beeson is committed to building people who can preach and pastor. And so we want people who as counselors can really serve the church. And so it’s a Christian counseling degree because we’re really helping people learn how do we help people kind of process, understand, integrate the gospel story and be reconciled to God? So, we want to be helping people move towards a lot more than just good mental health, but towards thriving, which is kind of a giving and receiving ... like they really become more relational but that relational has a telos. It’s a movement towards the gospel. It’s a movement towards the Lord. So, that would be a big idea in terms of what we’re after. Both how we’re trying to guide people, but also that they’re doing that in support of the church and ministry wherever they’re doing it. >>Sweeney: Yeah. I know you have a ministry in lots of students’ lives. But as we think about the MA in Christian Counseling, what kinds of students are you most trying to serve? Students who are serving or will be serving mostly in church settings? In clinical settings? As you think about how we’re building this and recruiting just the right kind of students to be part of it, what kind of students do you think about? >>Bals: I really think there’s a variety. You could certainly do this degree and be an outpatient counselor like at Daymark Counseling or other places here. Or across America. So, that would be one simple thing. Another thing would be nonprofit Christian organizations. So, that would be a missions organization, too, something like Unbound Grace in town. And then really, what Jeff is doing, being on staff at a church and doing counseling but hopefully doing it a lot better because there’s been some more specific training, maybe you’re coordinating the pastoral care. Maybe you’re training others to do kind of the lay counseling that Jeff talked about. There’s a variety of staff positions. I mean, it could be a youth pastor where you’re just more equipped to really disciple and interact with the parents and do family interventions. There’s a variety of church staff positions that you could serve doing the degree. >>Sweeney: Let me ask you a question that’s kind of like the one I asked Jeff five minutes ago. Let’s imagine somebody listening to use right now is already on staff at a church. And is serving very well, has a very fruitful ministry going on already, but finds himself or finds herself doing a lot of counseling, doing a lot of work with people who are coming to them at least first for the right kind of care. Does a person like that really need to come back to school and engage in a degree program like ours if they’re going to be faithful in doing that kind of work? How do you want to talk about that? >>Bals: They certainly don’t have to. I think it would be a good idea. But one of the things I thought of is that I’ll run into people in town who will be like, “Hey, could you recommend a book on this?” Or I really want to come audit your marriage and family class. And then I’ll recommend a book and I’ll say that you can audit, you’re a Beeson grad, or I’ll talk to them if you’re not a Beeson grad. Then I’ll run into them three months later and they’ll be like, “Yeah, I really do want to audit that class.” Or, “I did get the book but I haven’t read it.” And in a real practical sense, and I think Jeff is a good example, it would simply be a means of grace. In our culture oftentimes discipleship really isn’t happening unless you put some money and time aside to really do that. I think making that decision will really be a means of grace where people come and experience some of the formation Jeff talked about. I really think added to that, and Jeff again did a good job articulating that, is when you actually have done ministry you’re coming with a whole bunch of different questions than you had as a student prior to doing that. So, then you’re like, oh my gosh, I didn’t really know I was doing that well. So, you kind of stand up in it with a little more rest. OR, gosh, I didn’t think about doing it that way and then you’re able to lean and practice towards that. So, I think that really matters in coming to a place like this. But I also think the atmosphere, the sexuality class I’m teaching now, it’s 11 people and again, Jeff referenced this, but we’re really conversing. Some of that might be around stories, some of that might be a case study, some of it might be the content, but we’re actually talking about it. And when you’re talking about it and speaking outwardly about it and hearing kind of in an environment that is pastoral where you’re caring about each other, that’s really how you take ownership, you really build the relationship with the material. I mean, I think that’s another reason, again Jeff spoke to this – if myself and the four adjuncts committed to teaching in the program it’s about 130 years of on the ground experience. And these are people who love the scriptures and have been kind of working on the scriptures kinesthetically with people day in and day out. So, it’s not only the biblical wisdom that they’ve really gained, they’ve been formed by that. So, they’re going to talk in a way that really matters and I think connects with the students. So, you’re really getting teaching that is embodying the scriptures. So, you’re learning it auditorily, you’re learning it kinesthetically, you’re learning it visually. >>Sweeney: All right, how about just one more quick question for each of you guys. Jeff, I’m imagining maybe there’s somebody listening now thinking, “All right, well, maybe I should check this out, maybe I should look into the program at Beeson.” But they might want to know what kind of people they will be spending time with if they come. How would you describe ... I mean, so far, the community of folks who have come together to be a part of this masters of counseling program? >>Heine: That’s the one thing that I immediately regretted that I hadn’t said yet. And that’s the cohort. The group of people that you get to go on this journey with. It’s really shaping because so many of those conversations are led or instigated by the professor but so many of them just happen peer to peer. We’re sharing experiences in ministry, those who just came out of undergrad, I mean, that finished undergrad in May and then they were in the program starting in August. It’s such a dynamic conversation. >>Sweeney: It’s quite an array of people, too. Does that work? Are they fitting together well? >>Heine: I think so. I really do. So, if I look at the demographic of Redeemer, so many of these younger participants in the cohort are the same demographic, same age, and have some of the same questions, some of the same answers, have been shaped by culture in different ways. And so I’m learning so much from them as we’re processing the same material differently. That’s valuable to me as a pastor. And so much of theological training in general is how attentive are you going to be in this moment that the Lord has you in? How attentive are you going to be to the readings, to the conversation, to the friendships, the mentoring? You can choose your level of engagement and as you do that you are choosing how much you’re going to get out of this. If someone is bored at any point in their theological journey and education more often than not it’s on them. And so I find there’s so much to gain from listening to these brothers and sisters from varying seasons in life, seasons of ministry, seasons of preparation ... there’s so much to gain there. And I find it really valuable. I would think that in a counseling program, especially, the kinds of relationships you have with your peers, the people who are in class with you. So much of what you’re doing is so personal, it requires so much interpersonal transparency with other people. It’s important you’ve got a great group of folks to go on this journey with. >>Heine: That’s the discernment process that I know goes into every area of admissions here at Beeson. I have dear friends that didn’t get into Beeson Divinity School, who were very sharp. And got into really great other programs at other great schools. And when I talked with them I would say, “they prayed about it,” it wasn’t just looking at transcript to transcript and seeing which one ways more. It’s a prayerful endeavor and I know that that’s how Gordon and the rest of the team really approach the admissions process for this program. So, the relationships within that room, it’s diverse in lots of different ways. But it’s an alchemy that I believe is divinely led. And that the Lord helps through that discernment process to bring this particular group of people together – and that the Lord will do that time and again as each cohort is formed. >>Sweeney: I believe it, too. And your mention of prayer is a great segue to the last question I wanted to ask Dr. Bals. Dr. Bals, as you remember I’m sure, I ask our listeners to pray for Beeson, its students, and its faculty on a regular basis. As we ask them today to pray for the masters in counseling program and the students who are in it and the teachers who are leading it, could you identify a couple of specific ways you’d like them to be praying for us? >>Bals: The first thing that comes quickly to mind is we’re a pretty unique program. Most of your programs that are clinically informed and theologically driven are going to be mental health counseling in a seminary that leads to licensure. We’re not that program and we’re not the [NU-THET-IK 00:27:59] program. So, I just think we really need some prayer to get the message out there because it’s a unique program. I think what we just talked about in terms of cohort ... we really do – and you kind of prefaced it, Jeff – just want prayer for the cohort itself. That they would continue to come together and that it would be formative. Because I really believe you only learn by building a relationship with the material. So, if it’s happening in a safer/stronger environment ... we really have to process real material and the truth of it, but do that in kindness, it really helps it come to life. So, praying for the cohort. Praying for the adjuncts. Having adjuncts teach some of the courses ... I mean, first of all, I was an adjunct for ten years and it was the highlight of my week. And I know they feel that way. But they have other responsibilities. So, just praying for them in support of what they’re doing. And we would love some more students. We want another full cohort next year. >>Sweeney: That’s great. All right, listeners, please be in prayer as ever for Beeson Divinity School, its students, its staff members, and its faculty members. And please, if you would, pray this week in a very special way for the new counseling program at Beeson. Pray for Dr. Bals and his leadership. The other professors who are helping with the program. Please pray for the students in the program and the students that the Lord is going to bring into the program we have yet to meet but are looking forward to meeting. Listeners, you know we love you. You’ve been listening to Dr. Gordon Bals, professor at Beeson, Dr. Jeff Heine, pastor at Redeemer Community Church here in Birmingham. We say goodbye for now. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.