Beeson Podcast, Episode #719 Dr. Tom Fuller Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. And I’m joined today by Beeson’s Associate Dean, Dr. Tom Fuller and Beeson’s Billy Graham Chair of Evangelism and Cultural Engagement, Dr. Josh Chatraw. The two of them are taking the lead and helping us frame and prepare for this summers preaching conference. And so, I’m glad to have them on the show with us today to talk about what we have ready for people who want to come and join us for this summers preaching conference, annual preaching conference, which will take place July 15 through 27, 2025. Thanks for being with us friends. Alright, why don’t we begin by just telling our audience how this summers preaching conference came to be in the way that it did come to be. Dr. Fuller, you want to take the lead and just kind of explain what we’re doing this summer? >>Fuller: Sure. We in 2023 received a grant from the Lilly Endowment as part of their compelling preaching initiative seeking to energize efforts to help both current and aspiring preachers to learn to communicate the gospel in more compelling ways. And we were fortunate enough to win their approval for a project that we are calling the Spirit and Power Project. It’s a five-year project. It has a number of arms to it and one of those is to celebrate and exhibit exemplary preaching and that’s where this preaching conference comes in as a component of those efforts. We had a preaching conference for the first time last year celebrating the preaching teaching ministries of Robert Smith Jr. who taught so well on our faculty for many years here at Beeson, and that was a wonderful start to that effort. And this year, we are featuring apologetics as a focus in the preaching ministry, where and how, story, imagination, and apologetics intersects with the preaching of God’s word. And so, hoping to have many aspiring and current preachers join us to learn more about that and to engage in more thought and conversation about where and how we can commend the gospel to people in this current age and culture in more compelling ways. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And we’ve got Dr. Chatraw with us now who is an expert in evangelism and apologetics cultural engagement. So, Josh, why the apologetics theme this year? I bet there’s some people who think well, preaching and apologetics are two different kinds of things. They’re both very important forms of ministry. >>Chatraw: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: But we want them thinking about the role of apologetics in their preaching. Why do we want to focus on that? >>Chatraw: Yeah. I mean, for one thing, the kind of divide between kind of the theologian or the apologist or the preacher is a fairly kind of new development. For much of Christianity, the preacher was the apologist as well as many things. And so, preaching, I view very much, preaching as an integrative discipline. It’s one of the hardest things you do. You stand before people and you’re, of course, you’re preaching the word of God, but you need to being in both your exegetical but also knowledge of church history and systematic theology and where people are at and how to persuade them that not only this is true but that help them see the vision of the Bible as good and beautiful, something of how to move them. And I think one of the things that’s happened, sometimes the impression we get of apologetics is it’s this kind of sterile clinical thing that is over rationalistic. But that really hasn’t kept up with the developments of the last 50 years about some of the conversations that me and my colleagues are having. And so, one of the things is we were talking through this, it was saying well actually, there’s some really important conversations being had by apologists and actually, this kind of way of doing apologetics actually parches as well. And so, how do we put this in conversation with what’s going on at the forefront of kind of homiletics as well as other academics and thinkers who love the church and who are doing work in the imagination and doing work on story because that’s some of the things that are being featured as people are developing kind of apologetics for the 21st century. So, we saw this as a really unique opportunity whereas a lot of times you’ll have a preaching conference and it’s just wonderful preachers, excellent preachers, but it’s just preachers. And sometimes you have an apologetics conference and it’s just apologists’ kind of speaking to each other. Or you’ll have academics speaking on the imagination. Here’s really an opportunity to do what I think Beeson does so well, which is bring people together from different disciplines and let’s think how we might build up the church, how we might help the local pastors who aren’t experts in all these different things but have to do the work, the frontline work of preaching and integrating. And so, we’re really thinking, how can we serve preachers by bringing these disciplines together and really bringing, I think, just a wonderful line up of leaders and these different thoughts together. >>Doug Sweeney: I was thinking about part of what you just said again last week as I was drafting the talk I’m going to give in a session with you at the Gospel Coalition in April where we’re featuring this same things as well, the role of apologetics in some good preaching exemplified by some people over the history of Christianity who are especially good at doing this. Augusta you’re going to talk about. Jonathan Edwards I’m going to talk about. Collin Hansen’s going to talk about Tim Keller to bring things up to the present. And I was thinking as I was kind of doubling down on Edwards and trying to figure out how to explain what his gift was as an apologetic preacher; I was thinking he was able to kind of reach places in people’s experience and people’s souls. He was able to get into the nooks and crannies of people’s minds. He was able to connect with them in places where they were maybe doubting about things, ashamed about certain kinds of things going on around them. And because he wasn’t afraid to kind of address these things directly from the pulpit, we’re still reading some of his sermons today. What would you say, Josh, as someone who’s probably thought about this better than me, about the advantages for our people in our churches, people who are sitting under our preaching week in and week out when we as preachers pay attention to some of these things going on in the culture, or imagine some of the things our people are going through? They may not want to admit it, this stuff may not surface all the time, but if we love our people, if we know them well, we know some of this stuff is going on inside them. But what is it about the potential of apologetic preaching that you’d like to communicate well? >>Chatraw: Yeah. I mean, one thing I would say is trying to persuade the heart and the mind and you know, one of my most theological beliefs is that we are worshiping beings. We will worship. And when we worship the wrong things, we will eventually feel the kind of angst or we’ll feel a kind of the fabric of reality pushing back on us, God’s hand pushing back. And these should be signs. And so, one of the kind of roles I view apologetic preaching is both to understand the times, and even by just explaining hey, actually, I know you’re feeling that angst there, I know that this kind of you feeling these tensions of living in a world that we’re bombarded with these kind of visions of the good life that says this is all you get, this is all there is, live for the moment, and yet I understand where you’re at, but let me tell you where that’s going logically, rationally, existentially. Where is that going and how is that a dead end? And then how does the gospel come in and actually transform your vision of reality, transform your life? That’s not only coherent, that’s not only rational to believe this, but it’s also something that’s good and beautiful and brings flourishing. And to be able to speak kind of, to be able to even diagnose the kind of cultural moment in and of itself has this kind of effect like, oh this person understands me, this person has listened, this person can understand what’s going on better than I do, and it gives some kind of credibility. But then to be able to take that next step and say, oh actually, let me tell you how the gospel changes things. And then, as people are wrestling with this, they might say yeah, you know, can we really believe? And then, this is very pascalian, but then to be able to say actually, oh well, there’s good reasons to believe that. You should respect this teaching and there’s good reasons to believe this. We’re not asking you to turn your brain off. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Chatraw: So, I would just say one of the things going on in apologetics is a much more wholistic approach, which to me, as I talk to pastors, I’ve talked to pastors and sometimes they’re not you know, I don’t like apologetics, but once we get into kind of talking about what I’m talking about and they’re like oh yeah, that’s the kind of thing I feel like I need to do more of or I’m trying to do. And it’s like yeah, that’s what I spend my time doing and that what a lot of contemporary apologists, not everybody, there’s different schools and different kind of approaches here, but a lot of the folks that we have coming are thinking along these lines of humans as rational creatures but also creatures that worship and social creatures. So, we need to be able to understand the times and how it’s impacting the people in our congregations. >>Fuller: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. Alright, so let’s connect it back to our conference this summer. Who are some of the speakers, Josh, that we’re going to have? What are some of the themes we’re going to be dealing with? What will people kind of get if they come and join us? >>Chatraw: Yeah. I mean, our plenary speaker giving the three plenary talks is Alister McGraff. He’s a long-time professor at Oxford. One of the ways I describe Alister, Dr. McGraff to people who haven’t read him is you know, he has four different academic careers, right. He’s a historian. He’s a historian of science. He’s into science. He’s a biographer of C.S. Lewis. He’s also an apologist. And so, he really, if you took one of these, you would say that is an amazing career for an evangelical Christian and he’s, you know, he’s leading one of the leading church historians teaching at Oxford. Just that alone, but in fact, he’s got four different careers which most evangelical scholars would, you know, give their arm for just one of those. >>Doug Sweeney: And yet he loves the church. He loves pastors. He loves people. >>Chatraw: And so, he’s really, he’s written a lot of textbooks that are used across the world. He’s written on a very high academic level, but he’s also, he’s written apologetic books, Nar-apologetics. He’s written narratival apologetics. So, he’s not afraid to write popular and accessible books, which some academics are. And sometimes we’re just not, you know, sometimes we’re just not good at that but sometimes we’re afraid of what is this going to do and they’re worried maybe about academia. But here’s someone who’s teaching at Oxford who said, I want to serve the church and particularly saw opportunity to do that through apologetics and has been doing that a long time. And what I think Alister brings to the table is, I would say, he often has a mature approach that sees some of the problems of the overly modernistic or rationalistic approach and so wants to incorporate imagination and story, you know, drawing from Lewis, but also doesn’t overreact to that. and heh wants, you know, the good scientist, he wants to incorporate and kind of bring in, and he’s done this in some of his other work, the kind of work in science with theology and kind of talk about and have discussion between science and faith as well. He doesn’t overreact, I think, some of the maybe over rationalistic approaches where we might go the other way. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Who are just maybe a few of the other speakers and some of the themes we’ll be getting into this summer at the conference? >>Chatraw: Yeah. I keep going if you want. >>Fuller: Yeah. We have, you know, in addition to Dr. McGraff and his plenary sessions, we have three worship services built into the conference during which we’ll hear from three different preachers. Each of whom- >>Doug Sweeney: Taking a shot at this exemplifying. >>Fuller: Right, who we hope and have invited on the expectation that they will model for us some of what this might look like. Our own Doug Webster, Professor of Preaching and Pastoral Theology here at Beeson, will be one of those. Trevin Wax, who is well known to many evangelicals and who is particularly involved with the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Also, Justin Bailey, who is a faculty member at Dordt University, will be one of those three preachers. And so, we’ll hear from them in those times of worship together. We also want, you know, in addition to this focus on preaching and apologetics. We also want, you know, in addition to this focus on preaching and apologetics, we want any conference we do here to be a time where those attending are encouraged and built up in the faith and experience just some really vibrant worship together. Many of them are in positions where they are worship leaders and don’t often have opportunities like this to be worshippers in the pews and to be fed. And so, that’s another objective of these worship services. And then we’ll have two breakout sessions on Wednesday afternoon. The same sessions, the same workshops will be presented in each of those two sessions so that you have an opportunity to attend two of the four sessions that are going to be presented. Our own Robert Smith Jr. will be one of those workshop leaders. Maurice Watson, pastor of Second Baptist Church in Little Rock, Arkansas, a Beeson graduate and a member, I believe, of our advisory board in the past. We’ll have Karen Swallow Prior, also well known to those in this area of story and imagination and apologetics. And finally, we have Justin Bailey, who I mentioned earlier, is preaching and will be leading a workshop session as well. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. How do people find out more? How do they sign up for it if they want to? >>Fuller: Okay. Hang on for this URL on our website, Beesondivinity.com/preaching-institute/preaching-conference. So, that’s long, I understand. But Beesondivinity.com/preaching-institute/preaching-conference. And all the information about the conference, and the registration link is there. We have an early bird registration fee of $50.00 from now till May 1st. And then after May 1st it goes up to $60.00. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. Are there meals included, that kind of thing? >>Fuller: We will serve a dinner on Tuesday. And the conference begins, I should say this, conference begins at 3 o’clock on a Tuesday afternoon and it ends just before lunch on Thursday. So, we will provide a dinner on Tuesday evening. We’ll provide breakfast and lunch on Wednesday. Wednesday night is free for people to gather and do things together as they please. So, no dinner on Wednesday night. We’ll provide them breakfast on Thursday morning. So, two breakfasts, a lunch, and a dinner. >>Doug Sweeney: Man, this early bird thing is a steal of a deal. >>Fuller: That’s right. You can’t get that for $60.00 anywhere else. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. So, Tom, while I’m looking at you and you’re talking here, I’m thinking myself, of the three of us here, you’re the one who’s spent the most years of your life pastoring congregations. How do you process this? Is this something you tried to do with you people when you were pastoring churches? Is this like a new challenge for you? What do you think of as more of a typical pastor than either Josh or I would be of the promise of a gathering like this? How’s it going to sharpen people as they keep working on their preaching? >>Fuller: You know, reflecting on the state of the conversation when I was coming along earlier in ministry, narrative preaching was a category and people like Tom Long gave a lot of attention to this. And this is not exactly the same as that. That was more about the style of delivery, not accessing narrative, the meta narrative of redemption and salvation, of connecting with people’s stories and where that intersects with the great story of God’s redemptive work in the world. And so, I would want to tell people, you know, who see this title and are thinking about it that this is not your granddad’s narrative preaching focus. But this is really about how we can better connect with people in this cultural moment in this day when this post Christian era by some people’s definition to better commend the truth and beauty of the gospel as Josh has talked about, and to do so in a way that’s not built just on rational proofs or efforts to persuade on those grounds, but how to bring the story of God’s work in Jesus Christ alive in a way that really captures people’s hearts and minds and brings them to faith in Christ. >>Doug Sweeney: That sounds wonderful. Alright, last question. Let’s bring our listeners into helping us pray for the conference as we continue to prepare for it, and we ramp up to it. Maybe Tom, I’ll start with you, let Josh have the last word. So, how are we praying about this already and in what ways do we want to invite our listeners to help us be praying as we prepare for this preaching conference? >>Fuller: Certainly, we want to be praying that the Lord would bring to us the people who He intends to be here, for those whose ministries will be blessed and expanded by being a part of this conference. We want to pray, obviously, for those who are going to be speaking and leading, that they will be under the power of the Holy Spirit to communicate what they know so well and have communicated so well in writing and speaking elsewhere in a compelling way to those who attend. And just that this would be more than our having a meeting and having nice deep conversations about eternal matters, but that this would be something that really translates into aspiring in active preachers thinking more deeply and maybe preaching in different more faithful and effective ways going forward. So, those are some of our prayers and concerns for now. >>Doug Sweeney: That would be great. Anything to add there, Josh? How do you want us to be praying about this? >>Chatraw: Yeah. I think one of the things, partly because of what I do, no doubt because of my own social and ministry kind of vocation, but I see a lot of hurting people dealing with doubts, dealing with deconstruction, dealing with people who have objections to Christianity. And my hope and prayer is that this conference will really equip pastors and therefore churches to be faithful to the task at hand. You know, there’s a lot of noise now within evangelicalism and I want us to be more faithful gospel proclaimers and get to the serious work of missions and we need to be so thoughtful about that. We need to be so prayerful about that. But I guess that’s the big thing, my prayer is that the Lord would use this to strengthen His church, to equip leaders in maybe some ways that they didn’t get in seminary. And so, we’re really, that’s, I think, one of the reasons we’re trying to bring this group of people together is to build up His church because we see some real practical challenges. And so, we want to send pastors and staff and leaders back to their churches better equipped. So, that’s my prayer for the conference. >>Doug Sweeney: Alright listeners, we would love to have you join us. We’d love to have your pastors join us for this summers preaching conference July 15,16, and 17 here on the campus of Beeson Divinity School. If you have trouble finding the webpage for it, email me and I will direct you to it easily. I’m sure you could search Beeson Preaching Conference, get it that way but each of us here would be delighted to help get you ready to sign up for this or get your pastor signed up for this. And whether or not you can attend, please be in prayer with us for this conference. The ministry of the gospel requires a lot of help from the Lord and a lot of prayer, and we covet your prayers and support for the ministries of Beeson Divinity School in general and in particular for this really important preaching conference this summer. Thank you Dr. Chatraw, Dr. Fuller for being with us. Thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in. We love and we say goodbye for now. >>Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.