Beeson Podcast, Episode #716 Josh Chatraw Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I’m joined today by my friend Josh Chatraw who serves as Billy Graham Chair of Evangelism and Cultural Engagement here at Beeson Divinity School. It hasn’t been too long since we had Josh on the Beeson Podcast. But we sure are glad to have you back on the podcast today, Josh, to talk about your new children’s book. >>Chatraw: It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me. >>Doug Sweeney: Thanks for being with us. I think we introduced you pretty well to our podcast audience last time but just to kind of warm us up here for our conversation about your new book – remind us – how did the Lord get you to Beeson Divinity School? >>Chatraw: Well, I was in Raleigh, North Carolina. I was serving as the Director for the Center of Public Christianity and I was serving as a resident theologian at a church there. So, I was doing ministry and my family was happy. We were really happy there, serving that way. And really didn’t think I would return to theological education. I in fact told my wife several years before that I don’t think I’m going to do that. I think I’m going to stay in the church. The only place I would really ever even consider is Beeson. I can’t imagine them reaching out to me. So, when this position came open I got an email from you, Doug, saying, “Would you prayerfully consider applying?” Tracey knew we were in trouble. (laughs) And we went through almost a year of discerning that from when I think we first talked. Of course the process here at Beeson and the Lord brought us here and we’ve just had a wonderful first year and a half not only with colleagues here but I think the faculty here and the students that we get to not only teach but to interact with and do life with here on campus and in our own homes has been a wonderful year and a half. >>Doug Sweeney: It’s a huge blessing to have you here with us. Why would you have said that to Tracey? You’re not an alumnus of Beeson? Why did you say to her, “Only if Beeson calls would I consider this?” What was it about Beeson that you ... >>Chatraw: I’m a Baptist and I was serving at an Anglican Church. That gives you a little bit of my ... I’m convictionally Baptist but the kind of big tent protestant evangelical environment I really love. So, I love learning from people of other traditions, of other denominations, and also the kind of philosophy of education here at Beeson and in person. And really getting to know the students and having office hours where they come by and you interact and you know them, you know their spouses, you know their kids. So, it was a vision for theological education which I just think is so rare. I said that’s the type of place I would want to go do that at. In some ways I was doing a sort of thing like that in the church. And I just didn’t ... I thought Beeson is the only one kind of doing that as a seminary or divinity school. And so that’s why I said that to Tracey. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. Thanks for being here. Okay. Your new book is a children’s book on Augustine of Hippo. I want to ask you in a minute about writing a children’s book. But maybe to get us to that point I should ask you about Augustine of Hippo. I mean, maybe a question down the road should by why were you crazy enough to believe that a children’s book about an early church father was going to work well? I hope and pray it does. I think it’s going to be fantastic. >>Chatraw: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: But why Augustine? What’s the big deal about Augustine for you? >>Chatraw: Well, because Augustine changed my life. As far as changed how I thought about theology and sin ... Augustine has been such an important historical figure in my thinking. And my kids have been after me to write a kids book. (laughs) And I said I don’t think I have it in me. Guys, my books are different and I’ve never written a kids book. And I just don’t think that’s going to happen. And then they said, “Well, dad, you can do it.” You just got to find the right topic and how to do it. And then I saw this series that was actually going back and looking at certain figures in church history. They had done one, in this series, on Bonhoeffer and CS Lewis. But mostly 20th century figures. More modern, late modern figures. And so I have a relationship with a publisher already and just said, “Have you guys thought about Augustine? Somebody more ancient?” And they said, “Well, we haven’t but we’d like to talk to you more about that.” And so that’s how this got going. But one of the things about Augustine is in his confessions he talks about his childhood in a way that I felt like could really map onto kids. And really all of the western tradition is in some sense coming out of Augustine, even if you’re not in agreement with Augustine and everything – and I’m not. But he’s kind of setting the table for the Western tradition. And the types of conversations. So, he’s such an important figure. And in my own tradition as a Baptist and a lot of times I mention Augustine and maybe people in my church kind of have a vague kind of idea of who he is but most parents don’t actually know much about Augustine, if they’re honest. And so I’ve kind of been viewing it as the trend years ago was those storybook Jesus bibles that we’ve come to really like. And people would joke around and say it’s for the kids, but really parents were re-learning the kind of big picture of the bible and biblical theology and how things were connected through these children’s books. And I’m kind of thinking about this project in the same way. It’s also a way to really introduce – yes, kids, but also parents – to who Augustine was. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. Who is the publisher of this book? >>Chatraw: It’s Lifeway or B&H Kids. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. Was this idea of going back to a 4th, 5th century church father for a children’s book a stretch for them? Or they thought ... once you brought up the idea they were on board? >>Chatraw: Yeah. They were on board pretty quick. I think it was a little bit different in that you go to Lewis for instance ... I think Lewis was maybe the first ... No, Bonhoeffer was the first in the series. And you have this kind of spy theologian. And you have Lewis who has got Narnia and you have these other worlds. And it’s also closer to kids. So, you don’t have to do as much work to kind of make connections in people’s minds. They kind of naturally know the context or have something like Aslan that really holds their imagination. So, I think the questions early on for me from the publishers were, “What is the hook? How are kids going to be interested?” But one of the things I said pretty quick is in Confessions you get these stories of him in kind of a mis-education early on where he’s being ... people who are supposed to know his teachers, the kind of culture around him, they were supposed to be the ones who knew but they were giving him upside-down rules for life. So, he’s wanting to be popular. He’s wanting to fit in. You have this famous story of the pear tree. Which were just opportunities, not only visually because this is a picture book, visually I think they immediately saw opportunities that would engage young readers. But also the storyline, especially early on of him trying to ... one of the unique things about Augustine is Augustine was living right before Christendom. And so in Confessions he has other options and in fact even though his mom is a Christian, his dad is a pagan, and he’s very quickly exploring different options outside of the church. Philosophies of life, ways to live. And so there’s, again, that kind of connection with what kids are facing today in latent modernism with the pluralism and they’re hearing different ways of life and seeing different visions of life. So, there’s just some connections that I think immediately parents and kids will get. >>Doug Sweeney: What’s the age range you’re going for here? >>Chatraw: They told me to write it for five year olds. >>Doug Sweeney: Five year olds!? All right. >>Chatraw: Yeah, so that was a challenge. How do you write ... I think they said the range was maybe 4-8 year olds. But they said to think about a five year old. >>Doug Sweeney: That sounds hard to me. So, what do you do? You want to write a book about Augustine. You’ve just described the reasons why in pretty adult terms. So, you sit down to write a book and you’re aiming at five year olds. What’s the strategy? >>Chatraw: Well, the strategy is ... in a good Augustinian fashion ... to be humble. And to ask for a lot of advice. So, part of this has kind of become a family project. I have an 11 year old son. You know my kids. A 16 year old daughter. Addison and Hudson. Addison is very creative. And Hudson is pretty smart. He’s above a five year old for sure. I say Hudson is 11 going on 40. But still just the imagination of kids helped me hear my own kids. And my wife kind of speaking into this. So, that was kind of three voices I was listening to in my home. And then also my editor who she said to me early on, “I’m no expert in Augustine but I know kids.” And so she has kids this age and this is what she does for a living. So, really, that kind of relationship. And there was give and take. Right? Me as a professor and someone who is wanting to get Augustine, is wanting to do things a certain way at times, which might not be the best way always to present it. So, I had to kind of listen to Lauren and she did a good job of guiding me as an editor to ... but we had some funny conversations. Like, could we get more about Augustine’s marital life? And for those of you who don’t know much about Augustine, Augustine had a concubine. I said I’m not sure that’s where we want to go. >>Doug Sweeney: You said five year olds, right? (laughter) >>Chatraw: I don’t know if we want to explain to a five year old what a concubine is, at least we did not do that in the book. So, if you’re wondering about those sections, if you’re a fan of the Confessions, there’s some things that I said, you know, that’s really probably Augustine 2.0. Maybe a little bit later to get into some of those issues. >>Doug Sweeney: And so your family ... what was the process? Your family is kind of testing out the things that you’re writing? Your kids are looking at it? Lauren’s kids are looking at it? >>Chatraw: Well, I think Lauren’s kids are a little younger. So, Lauren just as an editor knows her kids and knows parents and knows this audience better than I do. So, I’m the Augustine subject matter expert but I know I’m not the kids subject matter expert. So, just listening to a lot of voices. But to be honest with you, Doug, that’s all my projects. I let former students ... I’ll call up a former student and say, “Will you read this?” I try to get advice and get feedback just from a lot of different people when I write. I don’t consider myself naturally a good writer. And so for that reason I just like to get a lot of feedback and I just work, work, work on the manuscript. I think for me editing is writing. Editing is what makes a book good not the initial draft. So, in some ways it wasn’t different from other projects I’ve written. But what was different was I’m probably, of all the books I know I know I’ve never written one like this. So, I was much more open to that kind of even more so to more feedback to others. >>Doug Sweeney: From what I’ve seen thus far, it looks like you have a great illustrator who has been helping you with this. >>Chatraw: Yes. And we never met in the process. This is kind of behind the scenes – we never met. >>Doug Sweeney: She’s just following your lead. >>Chatraw: That’s right. >>Doug Sweeney: Trying to depict what she hears you saying. >>Chatraw: I’m giving suggestions and ideas and then as she draws things they send it to me and I give feedback as well as the editors there at B&H. >>Doug Sweeney: She’s made a cute little Hippo. >>Chatraw: Yeah, one of the things on this book is it’s in a series where there’s an animal that tells the story. And so with Bonhoeffer you’ve got a sheep dog, with Lewis you had an owl, professorial, and so we obviously went with a hippo in honor of Augustine of Hippo. And we got to give it a name and so we thought what a better name than my son’s name. So, we have Hudson the hippo who is telling the story. We’ll see him throughout the pages. >>Doug Sweeney: I think B&H needs to make one of those hippo plush toys and sell it with the book. >>Chatraw: Yes. Well ... >>Doug Sweeney: It would be pretty cool, if you’re aiming at five year olds. >>Chatraw: Yeah, we could send that idea to them or maybe they’ll listen to this. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, are you trying to, with the kids, just introduce them to this really important person? Whether they understand it yet or not has been shaping the faith that they have inherited? Or in addition to that, is there some kind of main message for the kids, sort of practical spiritual message to the kids that you’re trying to convey? >>Chatraw: I’m trying to do both. The thing that I kept saying throughout was I wanted ... if Augustine read this, I would want him to say, yes, that’s the sort of thing I would have done. And so of course we kind of have a clue into that through Confessions. As Augustine is telling his story he really wants to tell a story about God and redemption and the bible and scripture. And something much bigger than him. And for him to tell his story, to look back on the past, isn’t just facts to know. Kind of, ah, just know these facts about this person. No, he’s telling that story. He tells us why he’s writing this to move people’s hearts. He’s not only trying to tech and educate but he wants them to love God more. He wants them to turn from their sin and trust in the living God. So, as I’m writing this, yes, I want to introduce Augustine, but I’m wanting kids and their parents to be moved to see the goodness and beauty of God. And to see the ugliness of our sin and to turn away from that. So, both of those things are there in the book. I thought I might just read a little bit from the beginning here. This is a couple of pages in. But it gives you a sense of what I’m trying to do in the book. I say, “Augustine grew up in a time long before big screens, basketballs, or bikes. And in some ways he wasn’t much different from you. He went to school, played with his friends, and tried to please his parents.” “Augustine’s mom, Monica, was a Christian. But his dad wasn’t. As a young boy, Augustine would go to church with his mom. But like his dad, Augustine would soon begin to search for everlasting love in other places.” “This was Augustine’s big problem. He looked for everlasting love in all the wrong places. He loved God’s gifts, things like school, games, and friends, as if they were the most important things. This made his heart restless.” “In school, Augustine’s teachers taught him good things like reading, writing, and math. But they also gave him some upside-down rules. They taught Augustine that people can find everlasting love by being impressive, sounding cool, winning trophies, and being popular. Augustine thought he was winning, but his heart still felt restless. The way his teachers taught him to win only left him tired, confused, and a long way from the love he was searching for.” That’s a little bit from the beginning and it goes through and tells the story about how he was trying on all of these different ways and they ended up not giving him what he thought – popularity, winning, being the best at things, and it wasn’t until he came to the end of those things that he turned to God eventually. It tells the story of Ambrose who was the preacher he listened to and he began to say, “Well, maybe this Jesus thing that my mom had always been telling me about was right,” and then has the famous scene in the garden where he hears a child’s voice saying, “Take up and read.” And he finally converts. But then we tell the story of what he did as a bishop and as a teacher and a pastor in the church and how influential his writings were – all the way through until he is on his deathbed and he’s writing psalms on the walls. It’s a great picture. One of my favorite pictures of the book is him dying but we have the psalms up there. He had people write them so he could be praying those psalms even in his last hours. I think a beautiful kind of story of redemption and even faithfulness all the way to the end, till he’s about to die. >>Doug Sweeney: That sounds marvelous. There are some kids in my life who need to read this book so I look forward to buying it for them. Was this a one-off experience for you? Do you think you might do another kids book down the road? Or it’s too early to tell? >>Chatraw: It’s too early to tell. We’ll see how this goes. It was a lot of fun. And it would just have to be the right topic. I feel like what I brought to the table was, hey, I have some ideas about Augustine and how it might really resonate with kids and parents. And so I think that was the right fit for a kids book. But there might be. I do apologetics and evangelism and just writing for some different audiences within that, whether it’s middle schoolers or high schoolers. How do we help ... for me, those types of ... as we’re facing new challenges in the West, the church needs to be creative, but we need to be creative anchored to the past. Anchored to the theology of people like Augustine and so we need to take an approach which is not just, hey, let’s be creative but be creative by looking back and anchoring what we’re doing by reflecting on the past very carefully. And so I think in the kind of literature sometimes, written to teens and sometimes that kind of connection, that deep connection to the past isn’t always there. So, I can see some things come bubbling up from this and developing from this. And maybe doing some more stuff on Augustine and the heart for maybe some different age ranges in the future. >>Doug Sweeney: Nice. What is the next book project you’re told people you would do? >>Chatraw: Yeah. Right now I’m working on a second edition of Apologetics at the Cross with Mark Allen. And hope to be done with that in September of this year and that will come out in a year and then I’m working on ... I can’t decide whether to call it a prequel or a sequel to Telling a Better Story. But it’s looking at really the ways of life in the West. Sometimes if you talk to somebody about Christianity they’ll say, “I’m not religious.” Right? But they still have ways of life. We all have to adopt a certain way of life. What I want to do is look at seven modern ways of life. From the ways we seek control, the way we consume, the way we seek freedom, and I think in some of these ways – they’re not all bad, I want to say that. It’s good that we have some control. I take medicine when I’m not feeling good. That’s an exercise in control and I’m thankful for that. But unhooked from other, a bigger story, or other ways of life, this kind of need for control or our consuming can overtake us. And I think it has in many ways. And it brings with it a certain malaise. So, I want to talk about that and it’s really a book written for ... I’m hoping to write it for Christians and non Christians. Because we’re all swimming in this thing called culture together. What I’m hearing is a lot of the anxiety and the malaise that I think these ways of life are creating is actually both in the church and outside the church. I think the message is similar for both – we need to come back to Jesus. We need to come back to this better way of life, which is found in Christ. So, it’s really a project that Tim Keller used to say – we can evangelize while we edify - and that’s what I’m trying to do in this book. >>Doug Sweeney: Marvelous. Last question. How can our listeners be praying for Dr. Josh Chatraw? >>Chatraw: Well, I would ask for prayer as I continue to teach classes at Beeson. That I’d be faithful and that collectively as a faculty we would be faithful in doing the very things that I’ve been talking about which is mentoring the next generation of leaders. And pray for my family and I as we still kind of get settled in Birmingham. And we plan on being here a long time. But yeah, when you have a 16 year old and an 11 year old there’s just the normal challenges of being in a new place. So, you could pray for us and for my leadership in my family. >>Doug Sweeney: We will. You have been listening to Dr. Josh Chatraw. He is the Billy Graham Chair of Evangelism and Cultural Engagement here at Beeson Divinity School. He’s the author of a new children’s book on Augustine of Hippo. What’s the title going to be, Josh, so that people can go find it? >>Chatraw: “Augustine of Hippo: The Doubter Who Became A Church Father.” >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. We can buy it when? >>Chatraw: I believe the release date is June 4th. >>Doug Sweeney: Super. We’ll look forward to it. We love you our listeners. We’re praying for you. Please pray for us. Please pray for Dr. Chatraw, his family, and his ministry here. Goodbye for now. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.