Beeson Podcast, Episode #676 Pastor Daven Watkins Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today by Beeson alumnus and pastor of First Baptist Church of Pelham, Alabama – Daven Watkins. Pastor Watkins has been the Pastor of First Baptist in Pelham since 2015. He’s been an alumnus of this divinity school since 1999. I am excited to say that he’ll be preaching in Beeson Chapel in just a couple of weeks. For all these reasons and more, we’re excited to have you on the podcast today, Pastor Watkins. Welcome. >>Watkins: Thank you, Dean. I appreciate it so much. >>Doug Sweeney: A lot of people in our area know who you are. You’ve been a pastor in our area for a while. But just in case there’s some people listening who don’t know you yet, tell us just a little bit about where you come from, how you came to know the Lord, how you came to figure out the Lord wanted you to be a pastor? >>Watkins: I was born and raised in Kentucky. I was one who had the privilege of being raised in a Christian home where mom and dad loved the Lord and modeled Christianity for us. I’m the middle of three children. I have an older sister and a younger brother and we affectionately say that we had a drug problem when we were younger, because we were drug to church every time the doors were open! But church was not just another thing that we did. My parents did a great job of teaching and instilling in us a love for the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, church was always very important. I remember April 15, 1981 – it was that night that I was really beginning to ask some questions about the meaning of Jesus and why he came and what was the purpose? It was right around Easter time. I was nearly seven years old. My mom and dad were there to supply the answers to my questions. That night I prayed to receive Jesus. Looking back on it I realized that it was on that night that the Lord allowed me to realize my sin and recognize my Savior. And now here I am all these decades later and I’m still realizing my sin and recognizing my Savior at a deeper, more profound way. But I know that on that night that I called on the name of the Lord and that he saved me. So, I was involved in church, always there. Fast forward about ten years when I was 17 and I was about to graduate high school, go off to college ... all those questions were being asked, “Where are you going to go to college? What are you going to do with your life? What’s the next step?” I didn’t have a good answer for any of those questions. So, I did what I was taught and I went back and I prayed and asked the Lord, “Lord, what do you want?” And I felt like he really was telling me, “I want you to give your life to me in full service.” And Dean, that scared me to death. That was not on my radar. And so Jonah became very real and very personal. Because like Jonah I tried to out-run the Lord. I went in the opposite direction. I built my testimony. I just tried to out-run the righteous one and out-maneuver the Messiah. And it couldn’t be done. Several months later, by God’s design and by his sovereignty, I was at a Fellowship of Christian Athletes camp and God broke in, like the hound from heaven. Just convicted me of my sin and just drew me unto himself afresh like never before. So, I went back home and dusted off my bible, because I hadn’t been reading it. Started to pray again, because I had stopped doing that. So, I went to Georgetown college in Georgetown, KY – majored in History, minored in Communications. That’s where I met Jane Ellen. And then we got married after I graduated from college. And then we came down to Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: Were you thinking while you were a college student, “I’m going to do History and Communications because I may well be a pastor someday?” >>Watkins: You know, I had a great pastor friend who told me, “When you go to seminary, you’re going to get all of the classes of New Testament/Old Testament, Greek and Hebrew ... you may want to think about doing a discipline like History, because it’s a similar discipline in that you’re going to read a lot of books and write a lot of papers, and you’ve got to defend an argument that you make. And if you can learn that discipline in History it will transfer beautifully into Theology. And so I took the advice of Ted Sisk and I found it to be very, very helpful. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, that’s wise counsel. And Communications because you thought if I’m going to be a preacher this would be useful? >>Watkins: That’s right. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. So, how did you hear about Beeson Divinity School? You came in the earlier years of the Divinity School. Before it was as well known as it is today. >>Watkins: I did. Absolutely. It was that same pastor, Ted Sisk. I sat down with him and, you know, I’m Southern Baptist and so we talked through some of the big six seminaries that I could attend. And then he said, “You know, you have other options these days that I didn’t have when I was coming up. One option is this new start school, only been around for about 12 years. Samford University, Birmingham, Alabama, Beeson Divinity School. Have you heard of it?” And I said, “No, sir. I have not.” He said, “You may want to check it out.” And I remember that when I came down for my on-campus visit I had the privilege of sitting down with the founding dean, Timothy George. And in that conversation he opened his office, we sat down for maybe 20-30 minutes. He heard my story. And then he said, “Can I share with you the story of Beeson Divinity School?” And I said, “Absolutely.” And in that conversation he made a statement from Mr. Beeson where he said, “I want to have my name on a place that produces pastors who can preach.” That statement stuck me like barbed wire. And I thought to myself, “That’s why I was created. That’s what I want.” I want to be a preaching pastor! >>Doug Sweeney: How did you know that at that time in your life? I bet there’s some perspective students who are wondering about all this stuff right now. Did you know when you were a teenager, college student, you were appropriately gifted? Were there older people who were speaking to you? What were you thinking? >>Watkins: Well, as soon as I surrendered to God’s call upon my life ... So, I was a senior in high school ... the very first thing my pastor did was the very next Sunday night he put me in the pulpit. I don’t know how wise that was. (laughs) I oftentimes think back and I don’t remember much about that sermon. I know nobody else remembers anything about that sermon either. But I do remember thinking, “This is why I was made.” So, very early on when I surrendered to God’s call upon my life I figured that was going to be as a preaching pastor. I figured that God was calling me to preach in the context of the local church. And so that was solidified for me pretty early. And I was a student pastor the last couple years of college. And even while I was doing that I felt like I was shepherding, I was pastoring those students that were under my charge and care. And then finishing up in college and coming to Beeson and sitting down with the Dean. When he said that phrase, “pastors who can preach,” I thought – yeah, this is a match made in Heaven. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And you were married at the end of college? By the time you got to Beeson you were already married? >>Watkins: That’s right. We got married in the summer between my graduation of Georgetown College and my entrance into Beeson. (laughs) We got married, we went on our honeymoon, we came back, put everything we owned in two small cars, and off we came to Birmingham, Alabama. Jane Ellen, my wife, was a House Director in residence life for Samford. And so we actually lived in the [inaudible 00:08:32] here on campus for the four years that I was here at Beeson. >>Doug Sweeney: Wow. We’ve got a lot in common. More than I knew! I, too, was a History major in college. I, too, was married right after college ended. We went on a honeymoon and moved directly to seminary. And my goodness did Wilma appreciate Jane Ellen’s contribution to the pastor’s wives panel a couple of weeks back. That was fantastic. I think you may have married up. >>Watkins: I definitely married up. And Jane Ellen was nervous about that. She would tell you that that was kind of out of her comfort zone, out of her wheelhouse. She could sing all day long. But when it comes to speaking in front of people, she does not feel like that is her gifting. But I knew she would do a great job. And thank you for allowing her to do that. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh yeah. All right. So, what was Beeson like for the two of you? I mean, it’s been a while, and I’m sure you’ve matured in ministry in some pretty major ways since the days when you were in a seminary student. But can you look back and identify some ways in which God used your time at Beeson to kind of form you into the pastor you’ve become? >>Watkins: Absolutely. I’ve long been told that we live life as debtors. So, we’re indebted to the people who have gone before us. We’re indebted to the people who have poured into us. And when I think of who I am as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it’s because of Beeson. I remember people making snide comments about seminary is really “cemetery.” That was never my experience. It was not a place of death. It was a place of life. It was a place of transformation. It was a place where God was just chiseling away the dross and removing the dross from my life and really fashioning me. He used people to do that. Frank Thielman, Ken Mathews. I mean, those are just some of the people that God placed along our path just to really fashion and form us. So, at Beeson, just that passion to preach, that preaching is not the only thing that a pastor does. But it is the most important thing that a pastor does. I mean, that was really solidified into me and just fanned it into flame – this desire that ... like Jeremiah says, “It’s fire shut up in my bones. Woe to me if I don’t preach!” And all of that was really just cultivated here at Beeson. Not just through the relationships with professors but also with your students and friendships that were forged there. And chapel services and ... Yeah, I think back and it was a chapel ... it was probably one of the lectures that Haddon Robinson came. And that’s when I got introduced to him. I remember thinking, “When I graduate from Beeson and when the time comes to do a doctorate I don’t care where that man is, I want to go study with him.” And by God’s grace, the Lord allowed that to happen. But if it wasn’t for Beeson, I wouldn’t be the preacher that I am. I wouldn’t be the pastor that I am. I wouldn’t have had the opportunities that I’ve had. Beeson really truly forged and shaped who I am. >>Doug Sweeney: How busy were you during seminary? What I’ve got going on in the back of my mind is I talk with prospective seminary students all the time these days. And we all know that these days people don’t have to move and go to a seminary. And everybody feels very busy. I’m just wondering about your experience. If you had it to do over again, would you go to all the trouble of picking up roots, moving to Birmingham, enrolling in person in a seminary? Or do you remember those days as being so busy and so full of really important ministry – even outside of the seminary – that you might be tempted to enroll in a seminary program online just for the sake of your sanity and time management? >>Watkins: I think I would say I would do it the same way all over again, every day and twice on Sunday. We are relational creatures. Charles Carter would always tell us, “Everything is predicated on relationships.” Everything in life is predicated on relationships! Fundamentally, you’re relationship with God through the accomplished work of Jesus Christ on the cross through the empty tomb. And then every other relationship flows out of that one. And so I know it’s easy for me to say because it was just my experience, but it was such a good experience being here, life on life, sharing the same space, sharing the same experiences. I think it’s just really invaluable. I think I would do it all over again. The reality of that really comes home even as we think back three years ago with COVID. And COVID forcing the church to become a virtual enterprise. The church has never been designed to be a virtual enterprise. So, I’ll never forget Easter of 2020. I’m preaching to an empty sanctuary. Now, the message is still vibrant. Because we’ve got some good material. (laughs) Right? The tomb is empty and it makes a difference. So, the message is vibrant but I’ll never forget standing there ... I’m standing in front of and empty sanctuary. >>Doug Sweeney: Just a camera. Yeah. >>Watkins: That’s right. And just thinking there’s something not right here. And we tell people all the time ... There’s just something about being in the room where it happens. You can go online and you can Zoom the church experience and you can get a lot from it. But it’s just not the same as being in the room where it happens. And I think that translates well into theological education. You can get a lot. You can glean a lot from online experiences. But it’s not the same as being in the room where it happens. In the place where the teaching occurs and just life experiences happen. >>Doug Sweeney: I agree with you completely. And I’m glad to hear you say it. And I didn’t prompt Pastor Watkins to say that. >>Watkins: No, you did not! >>Doug Sweeney: I just asked him off the cuff. All right. So, after you were done with seminary, what did your ministry look like in the early years? >>Watkins: I’ve had the privilege of pastoring three churches over the last 23 years. And so first we went to First Baptist Owenton from 2000-2008. And then First Baptist Pleasant Grove from 2008-2015. And then First Baptist Pelham 2015-Present. >>Doug Sweeney: And were you the sole or senior pastor at each of those times? >>Watkins: Yes, sir. So, the first congregation it was a country setting. It was farming community. And we were a congregation of about 200 people. That first church was very patient with me. But there I learned the rude rhythm that Sunday rolls around every seven days. (laughs) When you’re preaching in a local context and that kind of context you’re talking about Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and a Wednesday morning bible study ... I mean, all of those preparations and they come at you fast and furious. In addition to that, learning how to pastor. Learning how to pastor people – how to get to know them. How to love them well. How to understand the different dynamics of different personalities within the church. And how all of that interrelates and so those first few years ... what I learned I think the most was at the end of every given week I would ask myself, “Did I have enough time or did I take the time to prepare to stand up on Sunday morning and say, “Thus sayeth the Lord ...?” And number two, “Did I take the time, make the time to show people that I love them?” Because if I’m prepared to preach and if I’ve been there for people to show them that I love them, the week was a success. Regardless of what else happened in the week, it was a success. >>Doug Sweeney: So, what was the hardest of those two things for you personally to learn? That’s a question I’m not sure I know the answer ... because you’ve already talked about how you love preaching and you feel like you were made to be a preacher. But you’re also a very loving, friendly personable guy. What was the Lord doing when you were a young pastor? How was he stretching you and what were the hard knocks that you had to get? >>Watkins: The realization of getting out there to be with people and pastor people, it takes time. And it’s more than just walking slowly among the people on Sunday morning. >>Doug Sweeney: Right. And as a young preacher, it takes a long time to get ready to stand in the pulpit and preach, or to lead a bible study. The older you get you still work hard on it, you still get a little nervous, you still get excited about it but you’re in a rhythm, you kind of know what you’re used to and kind of how it goes. >>Watkins: Right. I think for me the tougher of those two was making sure that I made the time and took the time to show people that I loved them. >>Doug Sweeney: Without worrying that that was taking time away from preparation to preach. >>Watkins: Right. Because you can feel ready but you always know I could spend more time reading this, tweaking this, re-crafting this phrase ... because preaching is more of an art than a science. There are some certainly principles that you have to follow in preaching preparation and delivery, but there’s also an art to it. And yeah. So, just realizing that there’s only so many hours in the day. So, time management did become a ... and I think I’m still learning about time management but really early on in those first few years time management was enormous. And even while I was at Beeson I was a student pastor and the pastor that I was working with was Tom Fuller. And so that’s before he came on staff here at Beeson Divinity School. And I remember one day Tommy told me, “It’s always going to be busy.” And he told me that at that most opportune time when I probably had three papers, four tests, and staying up till midnight just trying to get all of the Greek and the Hebrew and the Church History paper and get everything done, and I was like, “You got to be kidding me!? How is it going to be busier than I am right now in seminary?” And then he told me, “It’s a different busy. It’s not the same. You’re not writing papers, but it’s a different type of busy. And you just have to learn how to manage your time.” And that’s been a lifelong venture of trying to learn how to manage that well. >>Doug Sweeney: What are the ages of your kids? >>Watkins: We’re just now empty nesters. So, Molly Grace is a senior at the University of Mobile. And our son, Nathan, is a freshman at the University of Auburn. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. The empty nester phenomenon, that’s a real thing. That creates some space. You miss your kids like crazy, but you have a little extra time. >>Watkins: That’s right! Absolutely! And so I mean it just now happened. So, Nathan is at Auburn and he’s a freshman. So, it just happened in August and yeah. Just realizing ... in fact, what we did is we gave ourselves a gift for arriving successfully at the empty nest. And Jane Ellen and I went on vacation. So, we took a week and went on vacation and it was our gift to each other for not strangling our kids, suffocating our kids (laughs) ... and successfully launching them to the next phase. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. So, we’ve got to fast forward a bit. 2015, you were called to First Baptist Pelham. You’re still a busy family man. You’re still reasonably young to be the senior pastor of a big church like that. And you’re succeeding a man who had been there for quite a long time. What was that experience like? What was that call like? What was settling into Pelham like for you and your family? >>Watkins: For us, it was something that really made sense. Following Mike Shaw has been a tremendous blessing. And that’s a credit to him. I think in many cases who you’re following can either make you or break you. And Mike Shaw has always done a great job of being very complimentary in private as well as in public. And he just kind of stepped away and he allows me to be the pastor and he just is very encouraging and very supportive. And to the people’s credit, in eight and a half years I can honestly say I’ve never heard anybody say, “Well, this is how Mike did it.” When you talk to other people who follow long tenured pastors, they don’t have that same grace. They don’t have that same privilege. But it really has been a blessing that I don’t hear frequently, “Well, this is the way Mike did it.” But I think once again part of that goes back to the education, the experience that you get at Beeson and beyond. The people that would just encourage me, “Hey, when you go into a new place, you don’t have to turn over the apple cart in the first six months. Take your time. Preach the gospel. Love people.” Because the statement is so true. People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. And once people know that you really care for them and care about them, then any change that needs to happen will be much more palatable than if you kind of come in like a bull in a china cabinet and just run your way through. And so I think that’s also been beneficial too. And so it’s been a blessing to follow Mike. And he’s a dear friend. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And it’s been about eight years now. What is First Baptist Pelham like? What’s the culture of that congregation like? And what’s the Lord doing there these days? >>Watkins: So, like everybody, we’re learning still three years later how to navigate post COVID. And we’re trying to reach out to those that maybe have not found their way back to First Baptist Pelham. And just check on them. But at the heart of who this congregation is there is a missional DNA to First Baptist Pelham. It’s always been there. And the last several years it’s really just been accelerated. So, we say that we exist to make disciples for a global impact. So, that’s our little tagline. “Make disciples for a global impact.” So, we got to know what is a disciple? And then how is a disciple made? And so I steal, beg, and borrow from John MacArthur who said a disciple is a lifelong believing learner of Christ. And so we ask each other the questions of what are you learning? Where are you going? And who are you trying to reach? And we try to be specific in those answers. What are you learning as a disciple? Where are you taking the gospel? It could be across the street, it could be across the globe. And then who are you trying to reach? And if a specific person doesn’t come to mind in three seconds or less than we’re probably not being intentional enough. So, we quickly say, “What’s your what, where’s your where, and who’s your who?” What are you learning? Where are you going? Who are you trying to reach? So, in a tangible way in 2023 we will take 23 mission trips, because we think that a short term mission trip is a great tool that God uses to help fashion us into the disciple that he wants us to be and to make an impact upon wherever we’re going on that mission trip. So, in 2024 we’re going to plan 24 mission trips. 2025, we’ll do 25 mission trips. So, the calendar just kind of works in our favor and we’re just trying to give people as many opportunities. Now, some of those could be a one day trip to Selma, Alabama where we’re doing food distribution and gospel conversations. That trip is easy, it’s free, it’s one day. It doesn’t require a whole lot of time. We call it “low hanging fruit.” Just about anybody and everybody can do that. But then we have other trips where we’re going to Peru or we’re going to Ireland. We have a team that’s just today coming back from Colorado. So, we have different ... Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and ends of the earth. So, we really do take an Acts 1:8 model towards missions. And so we celebrate that. We emphasize that a lot. And most years we have about 50% of our congregation on some short term mission trip each year. So, we want that number to be higher but 50% is solid. And so about half of our people recognize and realize the need and the benefit of taking the gospel somewhere intentionally. And it helps to fashion us as disciples. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. That’s fantastic. Well, Daven, we’re almost out of time. But I’ve got two more very important questions for you. Number one, now that our listeners have gotten to know you and what God is doing in your life, and what God is doing in your church a little bit better. How can they be praying for you? >>Watkins: Just continue to pray for direction and discernment. Direction to know where does God want us to go? What’s next for us? Because the last thing we want to do is just keep on doing the same thing we’ve always done. That’s such an easy temptation. But really, Lord, where do you want us to go? What do you want us to be engaged with and partner with in mission and ministry? So, praying for that. And then also just personally, just praying that the Lord just continues to bless this empty nest season. And man, we are loving it ... like you say, but it is an adjustment. And just to watch your children and pray that they’ll flourish. All the things that you have done your very best to pour into them and plant into them by God’s grace to see them go out and choose a church for their first time. Because up until then they’d gone wherever daddy was pastor. And so now they’re choosing a church. And choosing a ministry. And making decisions and all of that. And so we just find ourselves constantly praying for our children like so many parents do. And just wanting, just asking the Lord to really bless them and let his favor rest upon them. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Last question. After all these years of walking with the Lord, after all these years of serving his people in pastoral ministry, is he still teaching you some things? What is the Lord doing in your life these days? What are you learning from him? >>Watkins: Yeah. I’m learning to be patient, wait, and trust. I’ve told Molly Grace and Nathan I think just about underneath every passage of scripture you can almost hear the echo of God say, “Do you trust me? Will you obey me?” And just about any passage you go to you can hear that underneath. Sometimes it’s loud and clear. Sometimes it’s under the surface. But you almost hear the Lord asking his people, “Do you trust me and will you obey me?” And so I see that and I sense that even right now in this season of ministry. The Lord is saying, “Hey, do you trust me? Will you obey me?” And just here recently I came across an Adrian Rogers quote that really has just ... it’s really stuck with me. It’s really kind of rocked me when he said something to the effect of – for many, the difference between rejection in God’s sight and acceptance in God’s sight is the difference between commitment and surrender. He said people who just merely say I’m committed to Christ, they just might be rejected by Christ. Those who say I’m surrendered unto the Lord, they will forever be accepted in his sight. You read that and you go, wait a minute, time out, I thought commitment was a good thing. Because we talk about being committed. But he distinguishes between when it comes to commitment, usually I’m the one who is in charge of that. If I say I’m committed to reading my bible, praying every day, eating right, exercising, being generous ... the level of commitment is based upon me. You can’t say the word “surrender” without throwing up your hands. You’re relinquishing your control, you’re turning it over, and Adrian Rogers said tragically in the American church the word “commitment” has replaced the word “surrender.” And God doesn’t necessarily ... he’s not overly concerned about our commitment, but he is overly concerned about our surrender. So, what is God teaching me? Well, this is pretty fresh just over the last few days and weeks is when I came across that quote. But just asking myself, “What do I need to surrender unto Christ?” It’s not just about my commitment, it’s about my surrender. Because the only place that’s the rightful place for King Jesus is first place in my life. >>Doug Sweeney: Amen. A very wise word from a couple of very wise pastors. You have been listening to the Reverend Dr. Daven Watkins. He is the Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church here in Pelham, Alabama. He is an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School. And a good friend of mine, a good friend of this school. We’re grateful to you, Pastor Watkins, for this gift of time. We’re even more grateful to you for your faithfulness in ministry in our community now for a long time. Listeners, if you’re looking for a church home, First Baptist Church Pelham is a great place to land. We love you. We keep praying for you. Pray for us. And pray for Pastor Watkins. And we say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.